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Virgin or Non-Virgin birth. The Mother of all Debates!

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  • Virgin or Non-Virgin birth. The Mother of all Debates!

    If you just joined us, and you need the context:

    I said this...

    Then Brax said that

    I went back and read the book that the Doctor himself gave me,

    "The Memoirs of Jesus the Natharene"

    And, with all due respect, I think what Brax told Darrick was taken out of context and presented to convince Darrick not to foresake Daheshism.

    A noble act, even if my reputation and merit were put into question...

    But this is Daheshville... We analyze things objectively... And, obvioulsly, some of us are not "worthy." Still, for better of for worse, we are popular and people seem to visit and read... a LOT. So, in order to best serve the viewers, I decided to read the Book from end to end. And, here is my conclusion: Based on the book alone, as written by Dahesh and as given to ME, things are open for interpretation.

    In fact, if one were to read the whole chapter, objectively, one might easily come to conclusion that what I said about the non-virgin birth is plausible.

    First, in that chapter, Jesus is telling us how his mother sometimes was torn between taking his side and the side of his siblings.

    And, before I go on, Jesus clearly refers to Joseph as his Earthly Father and NOT his adoptive father, which he would have been had Jesus been born without his "intervention". He calls him "Father" and always shows the proper respect.

    In that chapter, Mary and Joseph are having an argument. She wants Joseph to speak up and say something when Jesus and his brothers (who didn't agree with him) were arguing. His TWO sisters, on the other hand where crying because they believed in him. So, for the record, his brothers (and he refers to them as his Brothers) did not support him, while his two sisters did.

    Now, and according to the story, on page 49 (Arabic version) she looked at his "EARTHLY FATHER Joseph" (can someone please lookup the definition of FATHER?) and said to him (and here, with all due respect to those who know the text by heart, I will summarize and paraphrase):

    "Why aren't you saying anything?"

    Joseph replies: "I am perplexed and I don't know what to say, and you know more about the reasons more than I"

    Mary replies: "And you don't?"

    Joseph: "No, No, I don't know them as well as you do"

    Mary: "Do you not want to speak to YOUR SON?"

    Joseph: "He is NOT my son. He is the son of the sky/heaven"

    Mary CONFIRMS: "On the contrary HE IS YOUR SON"

    Joseph then says: "He is the gift from the sky to us and to everyone else. He is not of this Earth and anyone who is not of this Earth then his teachings are without a doubt heavenly"

    OK, NOW, check out what Mary says, which doesn't make sense:

    Mary: "... (something I can't translate... Maybe mario can... "Isfah Anni" ) ... Joseph, if I told you I DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIM because his SPEECH is very strange"

    OK, did we all get that, MARY is saying that she does not believe in him. And Mary saying to Joseph, "Talk to your son'' ... "He IS your son"


    Now, Joseph begins to remind Mary of a few things...

    "Doesn't he call for goodness? Don't you see him praying all day long?" (so, here, Joseph, is Citing Jesus' virtues)

    Then Joseph says (pay attention): Doesn't THAT prove he is NOT human?

    Why would Joseph feel he has to PROVE that Jesus was not human if it WAS an open and shut case?

    That's when Mary says:

    "If what you are saying is true... then WHY DID HE COME TO US THROUGH THE HUMAN WAY?"

    That's when Joseph says (and here, I am paraphrasing Brax's translation ):

    "How's that? Don't you remember the Angel of God when he came to me in a Dream saying :

    (The Angels speaks in the dream)" Don't worry Joseph, for your wife became pregnant with him through the Holy Spirit"

    That's when Mary says:

    "Yes, I remember that, and I am greatly surprised because I cannot until this day explain that RIDDLE."

    And you know the rest...

    Now, here is MY take on what is WRITTEN and based on what I heard the Doctor say to me and my brother:

    Mary could have had HER PERIOD for all we know! In other words, according to the story, we don't really know what that RIDDLE was.

    Mary certainly did not hold back the fact that she was forcing Joseph the accept the notion that he WAS his son...

    Besides, even though she remembers the Dream that Joseph had, she STILL claimed that JESUS came to them through the HUMAN way.

    Nor did EITHER Joseph or Mary bring up the subject of having or NOT having sexual relations. And before you say "Jesus would not discuss such things..." Well, maybe not graphically, but, earlier in the book, he covered the whole issue of sex and marriage.

    Really, if you truly have an open mind, you'll see that this can be interpreted this way:

    Here is my version:

    OPTION 1

    Mary had her period. She was not supposed to get pregnant. Joseph worried that she might have had an affair. The Angel of God came to him in a dream and put his mind at ease.

    Once the fertilization of the egg with the sperm occurred, then, the "Holy Spirit" entered the scene.

    In fact, anyone who reads the story that the Doctor wrote about his niece leaving her planet to come to earth will clearly see that the spiritual fluid enters the body of the baby AS IT IS BEING DELIVERED.

    So, based on that, it didn't matter who the father was (technically speaking) because Jesus Christ's Spiritual Fluid would have entered his Earthly body the minute he was delivered. But because I know some of you are screaming "WHAT DID HE JUST SAY?!" Let me rephrase, obviously, for reasons not known to me, Joseph was chosen to be the VEHICLE that would ensure the entry of Jesus Christ into this Dimension called Planet Earth.

    OPTION 2

    Mary's Body NATURALLY fertilized the Egg—as per what the Doctor had also said.

    Now, you believe what you want to believe. Just hold the personal judgments.
    Last edited by Daheshville; 09-25-2006, 06:29 PM.
    "Fail, to succeed."

  • #2
    Joseph was Jesus' father

    Does earthly father mean literal seed-father? Or could it mean step-father?

    I just don't agree. I believe what the Bible says; that the Holy Spirit (not Joseph) was Jesus' father.


    • #3
      I am reprinting a portion of my other post, sorry for the redundancy.


      I believe that the supernatural entered the conception of Jesus, but without Joseph, he would have (perhaps) been forced to be born out of thin air. I am not saying God coulnd't have done that—he certainly did so with Adam... For whatever reason, there had to be a human carrier.

      I have no problem believing that Joseph had nothing to do with Jesus's birth. Meaning, that not one spiritual fluid of Jesus (for example) was in Joseph. However, Jesus, as did the Doctor, needed some humans to help him complete his mission.

      The Doctor, for example, could have materialized at his Dentist's office without my having to drive him... and be stuck in traffic ... for hours... and for him to suffer ... But, it had to be that way.


      I will add to that:

      Even if the seed was not Joseph's (and I have no problem believing that) but if we accept the notion that the Human version of Christ needed some sort of vehicle to carry that "holy spirit" seed, then why not?

      Would the human version (can I say that) of Jesus Christ have survived the womb without food or water? Again, we're talking facilitators and vehicles...nothing more, nothing less.

      Does the Doctor himself perform the miracles?


      Brother Ali did that. He overtook his body and made him do things, not even HE can do... such as run like and jump when his body was broken...
      "Fail, to succeed."