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  • Jesus Christ clarification

    Hi all ,

    is there any contradiction between what Did Dr. Dahesh wrote :

    "The following are two prayers by Dahesh addressed to Lord Christ from his book “Thunder and Lightening,” published in 1946:


    Quintessence

    Oh, Lord Christ! Oh, Sacrificial Lamb!

    The Pure Spirit and universal Quintessence;

    In You, we base our hope and reliance;

    It is You, who offered His Pure Blood for our sins;

    Oh, Divine god, who forgets us not!

    It is You, who gave us sanctuary and forgave our sins; Your Faith is the True Faith.


    "
    And What he told Mario that Why people dont accept the fact that jesus was born like a normal baby

    And The holy Quraan saying that Jesus is only a man prophet and who says he is god or son of god will burn in hell ,

    please let get an uderstandable summuray

    Sonic

  • #2
    Hi "Sonic."

    I don't have that actual piece in Arabic before me.

    But, let's assume he actually wrote in his prayer :

    "Oh, Divine god, who forgets us not!"

    Remember that the Doctor also wrote "The Six Goddesses" (which some argue was referring to the Six Personalities).

    Is he perhaps using a metaphor such as "a divine god" to refer to Christ... in the tradition of the Greek mythology? Incidentally, and on a separate track, I've always felt that the Greeks used the concept of the "gods" (for example, "God of War, Goddess of Love, etc.") as THEIR way to refer to SPIRITUAL FLUIDS (or the Sayyals). For example, you have the Sayyal of fear, or war, of hate, of love... etc. and all of them are battling one another to gain CONTROL of the human being...

    Anyway, lets get back to Christ...

    Please understand that there is a difference between JESUS and CHRIST.

    Hussein, who read the document I sent him, will confirm my analysis.

    It would seem that CHRIST is the "source" of ALL the prophets, INCLUDING Dahesh, Jesus, Mohammad, Moses, etc.

    So, using such a metaphor as Divine god is not out of line.

    He is NOT saying "GOD ALMIGHTY" or "Allah"... Rather "Ilaah"

    How many times have we heard ourselves saying to someone who did us an incredible favor or saved ... our hard drive... "You're a computer god" or when people refer to Beethoven or Mozart as "gods of music" (if they don't refer to them as such, they SHOULD!) In any case, I don't see that the Doctor was referring to Christ (who happens to be, technically speaking, HIS BOSS, as well as Jesus's and Moses' etc.) as GOD.

    That's how I interpret this writing.

    Hope this helps!

    Mario
    Last edited by Johnson; 03-07-2007, 10:37 AM.
    "Fail, to succeed."

    Comment


    • #3
      Ilahat :confused

      Hi can we say that Dr Dahesh said that before his right knowlege on this subject? (Like before he was spiritually guided). Dr.Dahesh said there was Ilahat.But the the first Islamic shihada is that "There is no Ilah but Allah" . So maybe it is a metaphore. but why to use such metaphores that will cause people to commit the great sin . Is it a hidden knowledge or it was deliberately made like this to people enter heaven and others hell?
      Last edited by Johnson; 03-07-2007, 10:38 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        OK, let's just make sure we understand the big picture: The Doctor was a poet as well as a prophet. He uses "The Six Goddesses" as a metaphor.

        He also collect art that showed nudity... And, in Daheshism, we USE his picture.
        Correct me if I am wrong, but all of these are not permitted in Islam, am I not correct?

        Daheshism is NOT Islam.

        We recognize the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). However, we understand things OUR way.

        You probably cannot apply EVERYTHING you see in the Holy Kur'an to what you might see in Daheshism. You have to employ some sort of "filter" and put things in the right context and adjust your perspective.

        A person talking about "gods" during Mohammad's time is not the same person—a poet no less—evoking the imagery of "gods" in the 21st Century.

        Here, I have another one for you: Were there SLAVES during Mohammad's time? I honestly don't know the answer to that question. My hunch is "Yes."

        You're a moderm Muslim... Would you accept the concept of "SLAVERY" today?

        Of course not.

        I don't see, once again, a contradiction with the Holy Kur'aan, because we have to consider the MEANING, or the INTENT behind the metaphor.

        If the metaphor is aiming at making us (TRULY) believe in gods (therefore, the metaphor would be preaching paganism ) then, yes, of course, it would be wrong.

        That aside, we have to also take into consideration the way the term "god" is used.

        There is "a god" (with a lower case "g") or "GOD"... the ALMIGHTY GOD.

        Is the Doctor saying that Six Goddesses are GOD? No, of course not.

        But, let's look at what the Dictionary has to say:

        1: Capitalized (God) : the supreme or ultimate reality. the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe

        2 : Non Capitalized (god): a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
        3 : a person or thing of supreme value
        4 : a powerful ruler

        So, when we take these definitions into consideration, we have to accept that, for a poet, it's OK. Maybe NOT a Muslim poet.
        But the Doctor is not Muslim. He is Daheshist.

        Daheshism is not for everyone. That is for sure.

        There is NOTHING wrong (from my point of view) in you remaining 100% devout to your Muslim teachings.

        Just, realize that you cannot look at someone else's DIMENSION using YOUR frame of reference. Unless you're saying we should all believe the same thing?

        And perhaps the Doctor wanted to confuse you on purpose to force you to make a choice either way. Consider it YOUR rite of passage.

        At least we weren't caught, tortured, and exiled... Right? So, losing a little bit of sleep over issues that define who we are and our relationships to our faith is the LEAST we can do to honor our respective prophets.

        Regards,

        Mario
        Last edited by Mario; 12-13-2006, 09:19 PM.
        "Fail, to succeed."

        Comment


        • #5
          Where does the Qur'an say that if people believe Jesus is God they will burn in Hell???
          The Qur'an says that "Christians have nothing to fear" on the Day of Judgment, and Christians in Muhammad's day believed Jesus was God.

          Jesus was the WORD of God incarnate, not separate from God, but His "WORD" ("kun"="be" by which the cosmos was created).


          Originally posted by Sonic View Post
          Hi all ,

          is there any contradiction between what Did Dr. Dahesh wrote :

          "The following are two prayers by Dahesh addressed to Lord Christ from his book “Thunder and Lightening,” published in 1946:


          Quintessence

          Oh, Lord Christ! Oh, Sacrificial Lamb!

          The Pure Spirit and universal Quintessence;

          In You, we base our hope and reliance;

          It is You, who offered His Pure Blood for our sins;

          Oh, Divine god, who forgets us not!

          It is You, who gave us sanctuary and forgave our sins; Your Faith is the True Faith.


          "
          And What he told Mario that Why people dont accept the fact that jesus was born like a normal baby

          And The holy Quraan saying that Jesus is only a man prophet and who says he is god or son of god will burn in hell ,

          please let get an uderstandable summuray

          Sonic

          Comment


          • #6
            Dear Darrick Evenson

            Dear Darrick,


            Happy new year to all of you in daheshville ,
            I have the pleasure to write the truth in this time of rememberence of jesus life.
            One of the resons Why Allah sent the Quraan after the Messiah had come is that people misunderstood his message like you did .
            It is not right to go backwards when we have truth before our eyes .
            If there was misunderstandings of Jesus message it is because he spoke in higher spiritual level than all of us using symbolic images and stories parables.
            Then Quraan came to make the matter clear , and we should not forget that Dr.Dahesh beleived in Quraan

            إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهاً فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ

            And the angels said , O mariam ,Allah will give you his word and he is called the Messiah Isah son of Mary he will do good deeds on earth and will be closest to me in heaven

            وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمَْ

            And they say they killed the Messiah Isah the son of Mary the messenger of Allah , but they did not killed him and they did not crucified him but they were mistaken by someone who looks alike him

            {يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْراً لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللّهُ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي
            السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً }النساء

            Dont say on Allah but only what is right , The Messiah Isah is the son of mary the messenger of Allah and his word he said it to Mariam and a spirit so beleive in Allah and his messenger and dont say three , Allah is only one and he dont have kids in skies and on earth...

            {لَّن يَسْتَنكِفَ الْمَسِيحُ أَن يَكُونَ عَبْداً لِّلّهِ وَلاَ الْمَلآئِكَةُ الْمُقَرَّبُونَ وَمَن يَسْتَنكِفْ عَنْ عِبَادَتِهِ وَيَسْتَكْبِرْ فَسَيَحْشُرُهُمْ إِلَيهِ جَمِيعاً }النساء172

            The Messiah will not refuse to be Allah slave nor the close angels ...

            لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَآلُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيْئاً إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعاً وَلِلّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَاللّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

            They become infidels whoever said that Allah is the Messiah son of mary,Say who can stop Allah if he wants to destroy the Messiah son of mary and his mother and whoever on earth all of them ...

            لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللّهُ عَلَيهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ

            They became infidels whoever said that Allah is the Messaih son of mary , and the Messiah said o children of israel pray Allah my God and your God Whoever beleives Allah with other gods he will not enter paradise and he will enter hell ....

            Excuse my translation , at least the meaning is there.....



            Sonic

            Comment


            • #7
              Jesus Christ is Jesus + Christ

              Thanks for the quotes. In Muhammad's day, Christians believed that Jesus was GOD, and they called Mary "the mother of God". Now...the Qur'an does not say, "Oh, you Christians will burn in Hell forever for believing that Jesus is God". Doesn't say that. It says that Christians, Jews, and Sabeans have nothing to fear on the Last Day.

              So, what did Dahesh mean when he wrote that Jesus was "Divine God" (there are no capitals in Arabic). Well...John, in his Gospel, Gospel of God, says that in the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and "the WORD was God".

              CHRIST is the WORD "KUUN" ("BE!") when God said KUUN! and the universe was. So, Jesus is the creative "BE!" or WORD that God uses when He wishes to create something.

              CHRIST is the "Son of God" in a sense, that God's speech can be considered His "Son" but not in a literal sense.

              So...Jesus Christ is a combination of TWO:

              Jesus=only the Messenger of God, NOT the Son of God!

              +

              Christ=The WORD, the Son of God.

              So, there is no contradiction here, that the Gospels emphasize CHRIST and the Qur'an JESUS (Messenger of God, not God's Son).

              Darrick


              Originally posted by Sonic View Post
              Dear Darrick,


              Happy new year to all of you in daheshville ,
              I have the pleasure to write the truth in this time of rememberence of jesus life.
              One of the resons Why Allah sent the Quraan after the Messiah had come is that people misunderstood his message like you did .
              It is not right to go backwards when we have truth before our eyes .
              If there was misunderstandings of Jesus message it is because he spoke in higher spiritual level than all of us using symbolic images and stories parables.
              Then Quraan came to make the matter clear , and we should not forget that Dr.Dahesh beleived in Quraan

              إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهاً فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ

              And the angels said , O mariam ,Allah will give you his word and he is called the Messiah Isah son of Mary he will do good deeds on earth and will be closest to me in heaven

              وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمَْ

              And they say they killed the Messiah Isah the son of Mary the messenger of Allah , but they did not killed him and they did not crucified him but they were mistaken by someone who looks alike him

              {يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْراً لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللّهُ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي
              السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً }النساء

              Dont say on Allah but only what is right , The Messiah Isah is the son of mary the messenger of Allah and his word he said it to Mariam and a spirit so beleive in Allah and his messenger and dont say three , Allah is only one and he dont have kids in skies and on earth...

              {لَّن يَسْتَنكِفَ الْمَسِيحُ أَن يَكُونَ عَبْداً لِّلّهِ وَلاَ الْمَلآئِكَةُ الْمُقَرَّبُونَ وَمَن يَسْتَنكِفْ عَنْ عِبَادَتِهِ وَيَسْتَكْبِرْ فَسَيَحْشُرُهُمْ إِلَيهِ جَمِيعاً }النساء172

              The Messiah will not refuse to be Allah slave nor the close angels ...

              لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَآلُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيْئاً إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعاً وَلِلّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَاللّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

              They become infidels whoever said that Allah is the Messiah son of mary,Say who can stop Allah if he wants to destroy the Messiah son of mary and his mother and whoever on earth all of them ...

              لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللّهُ عَلَيهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ

              They became infidels whoever said that Allah is the Messaih son of mary , and the Messiah said o children of israel pray Allah my God and your God Whoever beleives Allah with other gods he will not enter paradise and he will enter hell ....

              Excuse my translation , at least the meaning is there.....



              Sonic

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Darrick Evenson View Post
                Thanks for the quotes. In Muhammad's day, Christians believed that Jesus was GOD, and they called Mary "the mother of God". Now...the Qur'an does not say, "Oh, you Christians will burn in Hell forever for believing that Jesus is God". Doesn't say that. It says that Christians, Jews, and Sabeans have nothing to fear on the Last Day.
                True, it clearly says "Infidels are those who say that Jesus is God."

                Then again, and in the context of the Qur'aan "infidels" don't necessarily go to Disney World... But that's an over simplification and generalization. There are those who believe that Jesus is God, yet are tolerant of others.
                Whereas, you have others who aren't. I can't accept that both will end up being "judged" similarly.

                Originally posted by Darrick Evenson View Post
                So, what did Dahesh mean when he wrote that Jesus was "Divine God" (there are no capitals in Arabic). Well...John, in his Gospel, Gospel of God, says that in the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and "the WORD was God".

                CHRIST is the WORD "KUUN" ("BE!") when God said KUUN! and the universe was. So, Jesus is the creative "BE!" or WORD that God uses when He wishes to create something.

                CHRIST is the "Son of God" in a sense, that God's speech can be considered His "Son" but not in a literal sense.

                So...Jesus Christ is a combination of TWO:

                Jesus=only the Messenger of God, NOT the Son of God!

                +

                Christ=The WORD, the Son of God.

                So, there is no contradiction here, that the Gospels emphasize CHRIST and the Qur'an JESUS (Messenger of God, not God's Son).

                Darrick
                I am sorry... I ... don't get it... Of all days to forget my decrypting machine!
                "Fail, to succeed."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Jesus + Christ = Jesus Christ

                  Study a little Nestorianism and you'll understand it quite well.

                  Christ/Son of God/WORD of God entered "JESUS" (the Prophet) at His baptism, and thus Jesus (the Prophet) and CHRIST (WORD of God) became "Jesus Christ". Christ LEFT Jesus on the Cross, and this is why Jesus cried out, "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Darrick Evenson View Post
                    Study a little Nestorianism and you'll understand it quite well.
                    Thank you for the tip. The saga of Cyril versus Nestorius sounds very engaging. However, I fail to see how studying what happened back then could possibly TOP having LIVED with Dahesh in terms of... SIMPLICITY.

                    The whole idea behind Daheshism is to liberate us and not make us prisoners of complex and convoluted concepts that give a new meaning to "garbage in/garbage out!"

                    I know you mean well and that you are trying to make Sonic believe that Dahesh did not contradict the Qur'aan.

                    Many things the Doctor said or did might contradict what the moslems believe in.

                    What are you going to do when Sonic asks about the nude paintings on the cover... Which "ism" will you evoque?

                    Don't get me wrong, I admire the breadth of your knowledge. But there is such as thing as "accurate but useless information."

                    Sonic has to make a leap of faith and jump forward...

                    You, on the other hand, you've got to ... think ... LESS.

                    Daheshsim is not that complicated... Yes, it requires perhaps 20 years of "thinking" and "pondering" to get that "Ah HAH!" moment... But that has nothing to do with connecting certain linear dots.

                    It's all holistic...
                    "Fail, to succeed."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nestorianism is simple

                      The teaching of Nestor was simple: that the WORD of God "entered" Jesus at His baptism, the WORD is divine (god or a god) but Jesus was only the Messenger of God. Very simple. Thus, the Gospels and the Qu'ran do not contradict each other if Nestor was right, and if Dr. Dahesh was right.




                      Originally posted by Mario View Post
                      Thank you for the tip. The saga of Cyril versus Nestorius sounds very engaging. However, I fail to see how studying what happened back then could possibly TOP having LIVED with Dahesh in terms of... SIMPLICITY.

                      The whole idea behind Daheshism is to liberate us and not make us prisoners of complex and convoluted concepts that give a new meaning to "garbage in/garbage out!"

                      I know you mean well and that you are trying to make Sonic believe that Dahesh did not contradict the Qur'aan.

                      Many things the Doctor said or did might contradict what the moslems believe in.

                      What are you going to do when Sonic asks about the nude paintings on the cover... Which "ism" will you evoque?

                      Don't get me wrong, I admire the breadth of your knowledge. But there is such as thing as "accurate but useless information."

                      Sonic has to make a leap of faith and jump forward...

                      You, on the other hand, you've got to ... think ... LESS.

                      Daheshsim is not that complicated... Yes, it requires perhaps 20 years of "thinking" and "pondering" to get that "Ah HAH!" moment... But that has nothing to do with connecting certain linear dots.

                      It's all holistic...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        All you've done is prove (based on scriptures) that Jesus was not God, nor a God— instead, a mere messenger of God.

                        Dahesh (according to what Sonic is saying) said that Jesus was, or referred to him as being (not the WORD ... or whatever... that is within him) a "Divine God"...

                        Hence, and unless Sonic misread the piece, I am afraid your method is flawed and your response was out of topic.
                        Last edited by Daheshville; 03-11-2007, 10:49 AM.
                        "Fail, to succeed."

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                        • #13
                          Did not contradict anything of my beleif

                          Originally posted by Mario View Post

                          What are you going to do when Sonic asks about the nude paintings on the cover... Which "ism" will you evoque?
                          Pardon me Mario but i already saw some books and that did not contradict anything of my beleif ,instead it had spiritual meanings and symbols. Plus in the Quraan there is a exposed description of women in heaven and mermaids .
                          So to me it was normal

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                          • #14
                            In reading Sonic's original post:

                            "The following are two prayers by Dahesh addressed to Lord Christ from his book “Thunder and Lightening,” published in 1946:

                            Oh, Lord Christ! Oh, Sacrificial Lamb!
                            The Pure Spirit and universal Quintessence;
                            In You, we base our hope and reliance;
                            It is You, who offered His Pure Blood for our sins;
                            Oh, Divine god, who forgets us not!
                            It is You, who gave us sanctuary and forgave our sins; Your Faith is the True Faith.

                            I noticed that the prayer did not mention Jesus, but the Spirit Christ. Did not Dr Dahesh state that Christ was the was the Spirit responsible for all prophets? Then I thought, was the figure that was crucified on the cross really the Spirit Chirst? Am I just slipping over the edge here? Maybe Sonic could provide context. Was this prayer directed toward Jesus or Christ?

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                            • #15
                              I dont know i just read this from daheshisme.org while reading small pieces of books.Sorry i dont have the book. I think Mario have greater knowledge than me about this matter.And he can reply with proof of Dr.Dahesh actual words.

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