The Character and Divine Knowledge Relationship

[WingedPaladin]

I started discussing the relationship between character and divine knowledge with Mario, but he felt this conversation should be made public. He stated he has much he wishes to share on this subject. I also realize I have much to share on this subject from my own learning and experiences. Since it is very late in the night for me, I will post more information once passion and time meet. Feel free to post your own ideas and experiences on this subject.

[WingedPaladin]

The Physics of Character

All matter is made up of atoms and molecules. Often in older textbooks, atoms are depicted as many blue and red circles/spheres surrounded by little circles/spheres. However, the protons, neutrons, and electrons in an atom do not act in the same way as marbles would.

Here, the atom is depicted rather as having an electron cloud, or an area in which the electron moves since it does not move in a single path as a train on rails would: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom

In experiments, particles of matter demonstrated attributes of both being a particle and a wave. Many have concluded that particles are packets of energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-particle_duality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_quantum_mechanics

Matter can be converted into energy (ie. dynamite) and energy can be converted into matter. Matter and energy also interact - such as in your microwave oven.

Energy moves through spacetime like a wave. These waves or oscillations come in different frequencies. It is these frequencies that determine the differences between energy waves and how they interact with matter. Radio waves have a very long frequency and do not have a very strong effect on matter, while gamma rays have a very short frequency and can be very destructive to the structure of physical matter by tearing atoms apart.

Hot is the presence of much energy (one form of energy being heat), while cold is the lack of energy. This is very relative. What might be hot to one person can be comfortable or cool to another.

Now lets take these ideas and apply them to spiritual matter. Here I will be sharing things more from my own experience, ideas, and beliefs since physical science does entertain the spiritual realm.

I have learned that thought itself is energy. So is emotion. Some thoughts and emotions have higher frequencies than others. Positive thoughts and emotions such as thoughts about God, altruism, and love have a higher frequency than negative thoughts and emotions. Most of this know this subconsciously and so describe being happy as being up, and being sad as being down.

Our everyday thoughts, emotions, words, and actions determine the makeup of our character. We are all an inescapable part of God's universe and its inherent laws. God has given each of us our agency to choose whether we will act in harmony with the universe and God's will or we will act in discordance. Moral harmony and discord is much more "physical" than we know. A Japanese scientist Masaru Emoto has done studies of the effects of music, emotions, words, pictures, and prayer on the structure of water.

(See http://www.hado.net)

The more we act according to the will of God, have love in our hearts, and act according to that love, the higher the frequency of vibration of our spiritual and physical makeup becomes. The more we act against God and love, the lower our frequency of vibration becomes.

I often have the experience of being in the presence of one person and feeling very comfortable while in the presence of another person feeling very uncomfortable. I believe this is due to the difference in frequency of the energies we radiate - being in harmony or disharmony. This is why people of similar attitudes and ideas tend to group together here as well as on the other side.

It is my belief that the spiritual realm is organized according to these frequencies. The highest frequency is the purest frequency, or the frequency of God. Then the realms are are then separated downward according to the lowering of frequencies. Like frequencies attract like. A being of a lower frequency would be in pain in a realm of higher frequency (such as in the presence of God), and a being of higher frequency will feel quite out of place in a realm of lower frequency. In the LDS view of this organization and separation, there are 4 major realms: Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, and Outer Darkness. (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76) LDS believe God is in the Celestial Realm. Before the Fall, Adam was in the Terrestrial or Paradisaical Realm. We are currently in the realm of the Telestial but subject to the pains of mortality. Outer Darkness, is, well, outer darkness. LDS also believe there are differences in glories within these main divisions, but we don't know the details of those subdivisions. Mainly what we have learned is in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom, one must enter into the gate through baptism by water and the Holy Ghost and be faithful to the end. However, in order to obtain the highest glory of the Celestial, one must enter into the everlasting covenant of eternal marriage and hold faithful to that covenant.

One common question among Latter-Day Saints is why the prophet of the church does not come out with many new deep doctrines. Usually when he speaks, it is about morality, being tolerant and serving others, avoiding pitfalls, being better prepared for the future both temporally and spiritually, the progress of the church, admonitions to increase our efforts to keep the commandments, and having greater faith in Jesus Christ.

When Joseph Smith, Jr. was alive he expressed concerning trying to teach the saints new doctrine,

"But their has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation it has been like splitting hemlock knots with a Corn doger for a wedge & a pumpkin for a beetle, Even the Saints are slow to understand I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God, but we frequently see some of them after suffering all they have for the work of God will fly to pieces like glass as soon as any thing Comes that is Contrary to their traditions, they Cannot stand the fire at all, How many will be able to abide a Celestial law & go through & receive their exhaltation I am unable to say but many are Called & few are Chosen."

Here are a few other related quotes:

"Many men will say, 'I will never forsake you, but will stand by you at all times.' But the moment you teach them some of the mysteries of the kingdom of God that are retained in the heavens, and are to be revealed to the children of men when they are prepared for them, they will be the first to stone you and put you to death."

"It was this same principle that crucified the Lord Jesus Christ, and will cause the people to kill the prophets in this generation."

"Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life."

"If the Church knew all the commandments, one-half they would reject through prejudice and ignorance."

The reason why God limits what he reveals except only to those who are adequately prepared:

"When God offers a blessing, or knowledge to a man, and he refuses to receive it, he will be damned."

Many Latter-Day Saints were put to the test in the revealing of new doctrines by Joseph Smith, Jr. and some were required to make a similar sacrifice as Abraham in putting all they dearly loved in the world on the altar for God's glory.

If someone does not desire to live according to God's laws but rather according to his own law, what use to him will be the knowledge of the ways of Kingdom of God? He will refuse and reject those ways and ideas as soon as he hears them being in that spirit and attitude of discord.

Damnation is separation from God. The greater the rejection of the light of God, the greater the separation. We cannot endure His presence if we are in discord with Him by acting against the light we have received, so we will have to dwell somewhere else. To be in God's presence while in discord will be too painful and feel like an "unquenchable fire" due to the vast difference in frequencies. We must be pure as God is pure and completely faithful to dwell there and be filled with and enjoy His love and glory. It is God's Will that we grow spiritually to endure His glory and be filled with His light, but it is up to us and our choices and whether or not we will be faithful and purify ourselves through Christ. Thus, in order that we progress rather than digress, God strives to give the willing as much as we can handle and accept at a time "line upon line, precept upon precept", but will test some to see if they will take that leap of faith into the greater light, knowledge, and glory of His Kingdom.

"The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth." (Doctrine & Covenants 93:36)

"Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. " (Doctrine & Covenants 130:18-21)

[WingedPaladin]

Any comments, questions, thoughts? I don't want to be the only speaker in the house on this subject. I do want to hear the Daheshist view since I can only speak from my own views.

[Sandrine]

I often have the experience of being in the presence of one person and feeling very comfortable while in the presence of another person feeling very uncomfortable. I believe this is due to the difference in frequency of the energies we radiate - being in harmony or disharmony. This is why people of similar attitudes and ideas tend to group together here as well as on the other side.

Being Daheshist this is what I would call the compatibility of spiritual fluids.

But also, what we sometimes take for spiritual harmony might be the projection of our own hopes, desires, dreams ... and we can be easily let down ... That is why we can never be absolutely sure and every relationship is put to the test of time and life.

In other words what I am saying is: "Serve humanity, expect nothing in return and if you do get something good then, consider it as a gift of pure friendship and love which is a Godly thing !"

[Sandrine]

If someone does not desire to live according to God's laws but rather according to his own law, what use to him will be the knowledge of the ways of Kingdom of God? He will refuse and reject those ways and ideas as soon as he hears them being in that spirit and attitude of discord.

Damnation is separation from God. The greater the rejection of the light of God, the greater the separation. We cannot endure His presence if we are in discord with Him by acting against the light we have received, so we will have to dwell somewhere else. To be in God's presence while in discord will be too painful and feel like an "unquenchable fire" due to the vast difference in frequencies.

We must be pure as God is pure and completely faithful to dwell there and be filled with and enjoy His love and glory. It is God's Will that we grow spiritually to endure His glory and be filled with His light, but it is up to us and our choices and whether or not we will be faithful and purify ourselves through Christ. Thus, in order that we progress rather than digress, God strives to give the willing as much as we can handle and accept at a time "line upon line, precept upon precept", but will test some to see if they will take that leap of faith into the greater light, knowledge, and glory of His Kingdom.

Let's assume a person who is an atheist is happy, doing good things around him or her, for starving people, for the planet, for animals etc ... who is also behaving in a tolerant manner regarding the beliefs of others ...

In your opinion, what would be this person's fate ?

[WingedPaladin]

Being Daheshist this is what I would call the compatibility of spiritual fluids.

But also, what we sometimes take for spiritual harmony might be the projection of our own hopes, desires, dreams ... and we can be easily let down ... That is why we can never be absolutely sure and every relationship is put to the test of time and life.

In other words what I am saying is: "Serve humanity, expect nothing in return and if you do get something good then, consider it as a gift of pure friendship and love which is a Godly thing !"

Hi Sandrine, wonderful words of wisdom concerning pure and selfless service and thank you also for your insights.

Let's assume a person who is an atheist is happy, doing good things around him or her, for starving people, for the planet, for animals etc ... who is also behaving in a tolerant manner regarding the beliefs of others ...

In your opinion, what would be this person's fate ?

Many believe that if a person doesn't accept Christ during their life and is not baptized and dies, they are unavoidably damned. However, Mormons believe differently. Mormons believe that if a person does not accept the gospel of Christ in this life that he will be taught and have a chance in the spirit world to accept the Lord's gospel and sacrifice for him and thus will still have the opportunity to enter the Kingdom of God. This is one reason why the Mormons build temples - to perform the proxy work for the salvation for the dead to give those who did not have the opportunity in this life the opportunity to receive the ordinances (ie. baptism) necessary to become purified through Christ and return to the Father. (Doctrine & Covenants 128)

[WingedPaladin]

Final Judgement belongs only to God

Here is an article that illustrates righteous judgment (where we need to judge) verses unrighteous judgment (where we should not judge):

“Judge Not” and Judging By Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

This is the the quote from Joseph Smith, Jr. I wanted to post from the above article which relates best to Sandrine's question:

The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; … He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, … ‘not according to what they have not, but according to what they have,’ those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will be judged by that law” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 218).

[Sandrine]

Yesterday we were having diner with my father - who knows some Arabic because he was fluent in this language when he was a young boy, Armenian born in Aleppo, and who then lost most of his knowledge when he immigrated to France during his youth - and I brought up the subject of The Mormon's church.

That's when he revealed to us that he heard on several occasions a brother asking questions about The Mormon Faith to know The Doctor viewpoint on certain subjects ... and it seems that The Doctor was supportive and opened to this Faith ... I thought you would be glad to hear that !

[WingedPaladin]

Yesterday we were having diner with my father - who knows some Arabic because he was fluent in this language when he was a young boy, Armenian born in Aleppo, and who then lost most of his knowledge when he immigrated to France during his youth - and I brought up the subject of The Mormon's church.

That's when he revealed to us that he heard on several occasions a brother asking questions about The Mormon Faith to know The Doctor viewpoint on certain subjects ... and it seems that The Doctor was supportive and opened to this Faith ... I thought you would be glad to hear that !

This is rather comforting for me to know, especially now when the LDS faith is so openly mocked and ridiculed. (Actually, I do not know of a time when it has not been, but the LDS Faith seems more under the microscope than ever before.)

The LDS faith has been a great blessing in my life in teaching me how to have a personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ, receive personal revelation, as well as learning how to live a morally clean life. It has taught me also to seek truth: "If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." (From the Thirteenth Article of Faith)

I think what really attracts me to Dr. Dahesh is his kindness toward others, eschew of that which spiritually destroys, his deep humility, sense of humor, and of course, his transcendent wisdom, knowledge and talents. These are the same qualities I see in the prophets of the LDS church. Dr. Dahesh seems to magnify these qualities to a great degree.


"We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." (The Ninth Article of Faith)

What prevents Latter-Day Saints from seriously studying other faiths is the belief that all revelation from God would come from within the Church - our prophets receive revelation and inspiration on how to guide, organize, instruct, and teach the members of the church. There are many miraculous things that happen within the church that both blesses the lives of the members and furthers the work of the Church.

The view of most of the members of the church seems to be that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only "true and living church" on the Earth; other religions contain elements of truth, but not the fullness of the gospel. However, there are certain things Joseph Smith had said that would suggest that revelation from God could come from outside the LDS circle - such as his stating that the Holy Ghost was in a state of probation (meaning mortality) during Joseph Smith's lifetime and "As the dews of Carmel, so shall the knowledge of God descend upon them!" (Doctrine & Covenants 128:19). We also believe the Lord Himself will come to usher in the Millennium.

The last month or so has been an eye opener for me as I, in answer to a prayer, have discovered the wonders and knowledge that God has bestowed upon people around the world and the great efforts that have been made for the cause of universal peace. The parallels of truth between these groups of people as well as the fulfillment of Biblical prophesy and of the prophesies of our own modern prophets in other revealed religions to me has been uncanny and has led me to the conclusion that it all comes from the same divine source.

What I have come to understand is that the LDS faith has much truth, but does not have all truth - actually no one does but God - and that we are in a process of being prepared to be open for more truth - both doctrinal and scientific. What the church does have that would make it "true and living" is the priesthood authority given from God to perform saving and exalting ordinances that span both time and eternity, to be special witnesses for the resurrected Jesus Christ, and to receive continued revelation from Him concerning our stewardships and responsibilities.

I feel I should say that what have stated here is according to my own current understanding.

[Dan]

I haven't been on Daheshville much recently, but I'm still often pondering what I've learned regarding Dr. Dahesh and Daheshism.

I also found your father's comment interesting and encouraging, Sandrine. Regarding Dr. Dahesh's positive mention of the LDS church. I would certainly have liked to have known with more detail what exactly the Dr. had to say about it. Like Winged, the church holds a special place for me since it is were I have experienced much of my spiritual development and I know it contains much truth and goodness, even though I no longer hold its doctrines and recent leaders to be infallible and the only source of truth as I once did (and as most Mormons still do).

So your father is Armenian, Sandrine? I can recall that I read once some information regarding the missionary activities of the LDS church in the Ottoman Empire (pre-WWI) and it seems that the converts were overwhelmingly Armenians. Just something I thought interesting.

It seems that a disproportionate number of participants in Daheshville have come from the LDS tradition. When thinking about it, I suppose that it has something to do with a common belief in modern-day prophets, continuing revelation, continuing spiritual progression after this life, and other similar tenets. I expect that Daheshism will likely draw many more truth-seeking mormons who begin to inspect their history more closely and discover the changes to doctrine and ordinances that have occured and who are looking for the further spiritual knowledge which Joseph Smith said the "Saints" weren't ready for yet in his time.

In all honesty, I'm still haven't completely made up my mind as far as what to think about Dr. Dahesh and his teachings, but it certainly does draw me more than any other belief system that I've yet encountered. I suppose that may be some kind of sign in itself.

May God bless you all.

[WingedPaladin]

Repentance and Sincerity Before Deep Doctrines

I believe the LDS Church leaders have been and continue to be very wary of teaching deep doctrines to the general body of the saints - especially any new doctrines concerning eternity in specific terms. The Lord Himself told Joseph Smith and others to teach the deeper doctrines only to those who kept the commandments and proved faithful, and to preach nothing but repentance to the general public.

"6 Now, as you have asked, behold, I say unto you, keep my commandments, and seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion;
7 Seek not for riches but for wisdom, and behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich. Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich.
8 Verily, verily, I say unto you, even as you desire of me so it shall be unto you; and if you desire, you shall be the means of doing much good in this generation.
9 Say nothing but repentance unto this generation; keep my commandments, and assist to bring forth my work, according to my commandments, and you shall be blessed.
10 Behold thou hast a gift, and blessed art thou because of thy gift. Remember it is sacred and cometh from above—
11 And if thou wilt inquire, thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous; therefore thou shalt exercise thy gift, that thou mayest find out mysteries, that thou mayest bring many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, convince them of the error of their ways.
12 Make not thy gift known unto any save it be those who are of thy faith. Trifle not with sacred things."
(Doctrine & Covenants 6:6-12)

I believe this is for good reason. We can already see how people will turn around and make a mockery of that which is sacred - the worst of them being those who once called themselves saints.

I think a lot of this comes from misunderstanding and our human limitation in understanding things spiritual and eternal. There are many who will allow themselves to be shaken and lost over this or that doctrine or this or that iota that they cannot reconcile their minds with simply because they have lost focus on the big picture. Others will not be able to reconcile scientific findings with LDS paradigms and beliefs which might be more symbolic than literal. Because they lose sight of the big picture, do not seek a personal relationship with God and are not strongly rooted in faith and testimony, they block themselves from understanding greater things and receiving greater blessings. Instead, they walk away and lose all.

Another stumbling block for Latter-Day Saints and others is expecting perfection and omniscience from previous and present human LDS prophets (and even from other leaders and church members) - and that they cannot make little mistakes let alone major ones and still be true prophets of God. To that I say, open your Bible and read about the imperfect lives of the ancient prophets.

Although the LDS prophets and apostles are not perfect and all knowing, I know them to be very upright and inspired men. You need only to watch "Special Witnesses of Christ" to know how deep their love is for the Savior and that they are indeed witnesses of the resurrected Lord and are guided by Him.

I really can't tell you how many times I have experienced major paradigm shifts in my life from personal experiences and learning new things in science and religion - especially in the LDS faith due to my own research and study. What I understand about the universe is much different know than what I understood 10 or 5 years ago and even a few months ago (my latest major paradigm shift). The more I learn, the more the universe of God makes sense and the more arguments among scientists and religionists become irrational and senseless.

The spirit of discernment is crucial to have - especially in this world - as imitations and wolves in sheep's clothing are rampant on both physical and spiritual levels. I share your feelings of exercising caution as this is a new faith and until one receives a personal witness from God concerning it, one is left in the realm of unsurety.

Do I know of a surety? No I do not. However, it is compatible with my experiences and it makes sense to me. I believe I have also felt the peace of the Holy Spirit attend me as I read a few of the works of Dr. Dahesh and especially with his special prayer. It is for me a leap of faith.

I have no desire to leave one faith for the other especially since the former continues to strengthen my relationship with my Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I know the priesthood power of God in the LDS church is real and continue to be blessed by it in sacrament meeting and through personal blessings. It seems to me that Dr. Dahesh did not command anyone to walk away from their old faith, but instead to become true and faithful to the teachings they have received from God - most important to the teachings of selfless love and virtue.

From what I see, the difference between Mormonism and Daheshism is much narrower than that of mainstream Christianity and Daheshism. This is why I think we see a greater attraction to those of the LDS faith of late as you have mentioned. As you have also mentioned, I believe these two faiths share a lot in common - especially when we start researching the teachings of Joseph Smith, Jr. and Brigham Young beyond the standard works.

Basically, my message is, when you learn something from a prophet of God you didn't know before and it seems a little weird and out of place, don't lose your faith in God or the prophets. Hold on, wait a while, watch and pray, keep learning, and eventually the pieces of the puzzle will start to fit, the greater picture will begin to form, and you will see the connection and understand the meaning and truth behind it.

[Sandrine]

I haven't been on Daheshville much recently, but I'm still often pondering what I've learned regarding Dr. Dahesh and Daheshism.

I also found your father's comment interesting and encouraging, Sandrine. Regarding Dr. Dahesh's positive mention of the LDS church. I would certainly have liked to have known with more detail what exactly the Dr. had to say about it.

Dear Dan,

It’s nice to read your words …

I would like to tell you more about it but my father only said what I wrote here and I need to add that he is not a very talkative man!

Also, when The Doctor was among us, He said things that people around Him did not always write down ... that’s how we've sometime lost details …

Anyway, I’ve shared with you the exact words I heard from my father after I mentioned our friends coming from The LDS Church in Daheshville…

So your father is Armenian, Sandrine? I can recall that I read once some information regarding the missionary activities of the LDS church in the Ottoman Empire (pre-WWI) and it seems that the converts were overwhelmingly Armenians. Just something I thought interesting.

Indeed thank you for sharing this with us, that's really interesting !

Yes, my Father is French/Armenian. He was born in a Catholic family.
He met Doctor Dahesh thanks to his cousin when he was around 35 year old, I think …
After that, my parents, my sister and myself travelled to Lebanon to meet The Doctor. It was in 1975, just before the war began …

In all honesty, I'm still haven't completely made up my mind as far as what to think about Dr. Dahesh and his teachings, but it certainly does draw me more than any other belief system that I've yet encountered. I suppose that may be some kind of sign in itself.

I think The Heart knows, feels and guides us ...

May God bless you too.