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  • Resurrection vs. Reincarnation

    The Resurrection of Jesus Christ and the belief that all will be resurrected in the last day is a strong belief held by many Christians. Latter-Day Saints believe basically the same, but have a more detailed view in that the righteous will be resurrected at Christ's second coming to fulfill duties during the Millennium. After the era of the Millennium is fulfilled, the wicked will receive their resurrection. However, in the general modern Christian view, most believe everyone lives only one life and is judged upon that one life on Judgment Day.

    Hinduism, Buddhism, and other religions, including Daheshism, believe more in the idea of reincarnation, or the experiencing of many lives, and the idea of karma, or the law of ongoing justice and balance in the Universe. Many Christians, including most Latter-Day Saints, generally reject the doctrine of many lives as false.

    So which is right? Resurrection or Reincarnation?

    The answer just might be "yes": http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen09.html


    Note: From what I am aware, Joseph Smith did not publicly teach reincarnation and Latter-Day Saints generally reject reincarnation as false mainly due to this encounter by Joseph Smith in 1835:

    "While sitting in my house, between ten and eleven this morning, a man came in and introduced himself to me by the name of 'Joshua, the Jewish Minister.' His appearance was something singular, having a beard about three inches in length, quite grey [gray]; also his hair was long, and considerably silvered with age; I thought him about fifty or fifty-five years old; tall, strait, slender built, of thin visage, blue eyes, and fair complexion; wore a sea-green frock coat and pantaloons, black fur hat with narrow brim; and, while speaking, frequently shut his eyes, with a scowl on his countenance. I made some inquiry after his name, but received no definite answer. We soon commenced talking on the subject of religion, and, after I had made some remarks concerning the Bible, I commenced giving him a relation of the circumstances connected with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, as recorded in the former part of this history.

    "While I was relating a brief history of the establishment of the Church of Christ in the last days, Joshua seemed to be highly entertained. When I had closed my narration, I observed that the hour of worship and dinner had arrived, and invited him to tarry, to which he consented. After dinner the conversation was resumed, and Joshua proceeded to make some remarks on the prophecies, as follows: He observed that he was aware that I could bear stronger meat than many others, therefore he should open his mind the more freely....

    "I told Joshua I did not understand his remarks on the resurrection, and wished him to explain.

    "He replied that he did not feel impressed by the Spirit to unfold it further at present, but perhaps he might at some other time.

    "I then withdrew to transact some business with a gentleman who had called to see me, when Joshua informed my scribe that he was born in Cambridge, Washington County, New York. He says that all the railroads, canals, and other improvements are performed by the spirits of the resurrection. The silence spoken of by John the Revelator, which is to be in heaven for the space of half an hour, is between 1830 and 1851, during which time the judgments of God will be poured out, after that time there will be peace.

    "Curiosity to see a man that was reputed to be a Jew caused many to call during the day, and more particularly in the evening.

    "Suspicions were entertained that the said Joshua was the noted Matthias of New York, spoken so much of in the public prints, on account of the trials he endured in that place, before a court of justice, for murder, manslaughter, contempt of court, whipping his daughter, etc.; for the last two crimes he was imprisoned, and came out about four months since. After some equivocating he confessed that he really was Matthias.

    "After supper I proposed that he should deliver a lecture to us. He did so, sitting in his chair.

    "He commenced by saying, 'God said, let there be light, and there was light,' which he dwelt upon through his discourse. He made some very excellent remarks, but his mind was evidently filled with darkness.

    "After the congregation dispersed, he conversed freely upon the circumstances that transpired at New York. His name is Robert Matthias. He says that Joshua is his priestly name. During all this time I did not contradict his sentiments, wishing to draw out all that I could concerning his faith.

    "Mr. Beeman, of New York, came to ask advice of me, whether he had better purchase lands in this vicinity, as he could not arrange his business to go to Missouri next spring. I advised him to come here and settle until he could move to Zion.

    "Tuesday, 10. I resumed conversation with Matthias, and desired him to enlighten my mind more on his views respecting the resurrection.

    "He said that he possessed the spirit of his fathers, that he was a literal descendant of Matthias the apostle that was chosen in the place of Judas that fell; and that his spirit was resurrected in him; and that this was the way or scheme of eternal life-this transmigration of soul or spirit from father to son.

    "I told him that his doctrine was of the Devil, that he was in reality in possession of a wicked and depraved spirit, although he professed to be the Spirit of truth itself; and he said also that he possessed the soul of Christ.

    "He tarried until Wednesday, the 11th, after breakfast, when I told him that my God told me that his god was the Devil, and I could not keep him any longer, and he must depart. And so I, for once, cast out the Devil in bodily shape, and I believe a murderer."
    (History of the Church Volume 1, Chapter 23, p. 599-600)



    Daheshists may read the above and say, "Hey, this transmigration of souls idea sounds a whole lot like the Sayyal concept!" Up until this time, Joseph Smith had seen resurrected and glorified beings such as God the Father, Jesus Christ, the Angel Moroni, John the Baptist, and the Apostles Peter, James, and John. On April 3, 1836, he and Oliver Cowdery would see Jesus Christ, Elijah, Moses, and Elias in the Kirtland Temple. Some of these beings would actually touch Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery on their heads to bestow the Holy Priesthood power and its keys upon them. Thus, from Joseph Smith's understanding and experience, to be resurrected was to have a glorified, perfected and tangible physical body completely subject to the will of the spirit. (Daheshists may be more familiar with the concept of beings from higher worlds coming to Earth in a blink of an eye to perform a certain task, then vanish in the blink of an eye to return back to their higher world.) With this in mind, it must have sounded quite strange to Joseph Smith's ears to hear that resurrection was the transmigration of soul from father to son and so on. However, Latter-Day Saints believe that the Aaronic Priesthood, or the Priesthood of Aaron, is passed on from father to son automatically in the tribe of Levi. Outside of this tribe, one must be ordained to receive the Priesthood of Aaron by the laying on of hands (placing hands on the person's head and giving a special ordination prayer to pass on the ordination) to this Priesthood. The Melchizedek Priesthood must also be ordained by the laying on of hands.

    Something else I should mention here is concerning Joseph Smith's lineage. Joseph's grandfather, Asael Smith said, "It has been bourne upon my soul that one of my descendants will promulgate a work to revolutionize the world of religious faith." Before his death, Asael would tell his wife after reading the entire Book of Mormon, that Joseph was the "very prophet that he had long known would come in his family." (Cannon, George Q., Life of Joseph Smith The Prophet p. 3)

    Both Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, and father, Joseph Smith Sr., had spiritual experiences and visions prior to their son, Joseph Jr., being born. (i.e. Lucy Mack was ill and was nearing death, but promised the Lord that if He should let her live, that she would raise her children to believe in and worship God. She recovered, and strove throughout her life to keep this promise. She also had a dream where she saw two tall trees. One was stiff and stood straight up and wouldn't move while the other joyfully waved and moved in chorus with the wind. She understood that the second tree represented her husband, Joseph Sr. who would enjoy the gospel his son brought and would receive many blessings, and the first tree represented her husband's brother who would animately reject and never believe in the visions of his nephew.) With this in mind and the fact that many of prophets in the east have come through the same lineage of Abraham, I have come to the conclusion that the ease of receiving spiritual experiences tends to run in families. I believe my own is no exception.
    Last edited by WingedPaladin; 03-30-2008, 07:15 PM. Reason: Clarification of the main point of this passage: "yes"

  • #2
    We can't comment on the Latter Day Saints (because the Founders of Daheshville were raised Catholic), but those Christians who might deem our beliefs to be false have—with all due respect— missed the obvious.

    All they have to do is give their bible to a third and objective party (if there is such a thing) and let them decide if, indeed, some passages do not indicate the notion or REINCARNATION. We have several excerpts posted.

    Here is a quick recap:

    Reincarnation is the most natural thing that could ever happen to a bunch of Spiritual Fluids.

    Waves... Vibrations... Cycles... see the link?

    Heck, even in one lifetime, a human being can experience several opportunities to relive (sort of) the same experience in order to (hopefully) improve.

    In essence, they are given a chance to redeem themselves, over, and over, and over... until the patience of GOD is no more, then, sure, off they go to ...

    But to suggest that going to "Hell" is intrinsically eternal from the get go...

    Any religion prior to Daheshism has to have had a limited perspective on the matter.

    Hold the tomatoes (or the Noni Fruit!)

    Think... Look at this logically...

    How could it NOT have had a limited perspective when the founder of every Religion (back then) was born before the advent of any scientific theories that discuss a multi-dimensional Universe?

    OK, so Buddha's people were perhaps more enlightened. So were (arguably) the Native Americans... the Maya, the Incas...

    Meanwhile, back to Jesus Christ:

    How could Jesus have spoken in terms of waves and particles? Impossible!

    We're not suggesting that everyone should become a Daheshist.

    But it is clear that Daheshism reconciles science and Faith.


    No...nooooo....not by providing so called "scientific proof."

    There is no such thing as "Scientific proof that God Exists."

    We've made (many a times) the argument that "Miracles" cannot be considered SCIENTIFIC proof.

    Miracles, on the other hand, ARE a KIND of Proof... we don't have a name for it... yet. It is the kind of proof that requires a mystical experience on a highly deep level to work... And every person's experience is different.

    WHEREAS, when we speak of SCIENTIFIC proof, there is no shades of gray.

    Millions who attend (and enjoy) physics classes experience the same thing at the root level. There is no Mystical experience... usually. Right? Heaven forbid if Science and Mysticism meet... Then again, show us one great scientific theory that came out of a burst of inspiration and we will show you a Mystical experience at work... But, no one wants to admit it.

    There is perhaps amazement and a sense of wonder... and that perhaps pushes a select few to become philosophers. But, for the most part, it is a matter of matching the theory to the experiment and vice versa... A lot like when some classical music students study and perform certain musical passages, focusing only on the the performance, without allowing themselves to feel one iota of what the composer felt...

    Two people seeing the same miracle will NOT feel the same range of emotions.

    And some HAVE had mystical experiences WITHOUT having seen Miracles (and once again, here, by Miracles, we mean "tangible manifestations that can be taped or filmed and during which all of nature's law are —seemingly—broken...such as, parting the Red Sea..."

    These are the ones who are (or will be) true Daheshists.

    The first thing is to resist the temptation to fall into the kind of fear that is destructive.

    Just like stress, there is "Good Fear" and there is "Bad Fear."

    Should we be VIGILANT?

    Oh, yes. But even in Flight school they teach you not to keep your eyes focuses on only one part of the sky and to constantly sweep the horizon, back and forth.

    Also, when we try to be too careful, we ending forgetting some detail that causes an accident...

    As for "Resurrection vs. Reincarnation"

    Well, considering that there WERE miracles during which the Dead literally came back to life, we can only conclude that Resurrection exists.

    But if you want to be technical about it:

    Resurrection is (basically) Instant Reincarnation that takes place in the same temporal plane. In other words, say (heaven forbid) you were to die... and you were revived (either though the Miracle of Science or ... some other "Miraculous means"... and once you are "Revived" you remember exactly who and where you are... that's resurrection.

    Now, let's say that you die, and your body decays and there is no more trace of you...

    You can either "Wake up" in an other dimension and live there for a while, then, "travel" to another and so forth... so, you're REINCARNATING...

    Then, Suddenly, for some reason only known to GOD, a particular space-time segment if restored AS IS, and, poof, there you are again, that's Resurrection.

    When Doctor Dahesh brought back (on numerous times) a burnt Symbol to its ORIGINAL state, with all the original text and so on... That's Resurrection, isn't it?

    It is a FORM of LOCALIZED reincarnation.
    Last edited by Daheshville; 03-30-2008, 06:21 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by WingedPaladin View Post
      Up until this time, Joseph Smith had seen resurrected and glorified beings such as God the Father, Jesus Christ, the Angel Moroni, John the Baptist, and the Apostles Peter, James, and John.
      Well, did he have the exact same body as Jesus, John, Peter, James etc. ?

      Then, by strict definition of "Resurrection" (see above) he was not resurrected.

      Instead, and in Daheshist parlance, he had Spiritual Fluids from each of these individuals. That's no small matter—to a Daheshist, that is.

      But even the Daheshist who had a spiritual fluid from BOTH John the Baptist AND Elijah was BANNED from Daheshism by none other than Doctor Dahesh himself.

      Why?

      His actions...

      So, word to the wise: always keep a sense of perspective.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Daheshville View Post
        Hold the tomatoes (or the Noni Fruit!)
        My intention is not to throw tomatoes or Noni Fruit at Daheshist beliefs or the beliefs of any other religion. My intention is to say, "Hey, all these "differing" beliefs seem to tie together after all!" I am still learning about resurrection and reincarnation, but I have no personal memory or spiritual experience that will allow me to be definite on the subject. From my understanding of what I have been taught, resurrection is a permanent, eternal condition, where spirit and body are joined to never again be separated. Now whether or not the beings Joseph Smith saw all had Eternal Life and could never die again, or if they had come from a higher world where people live for thousands or millions of years then die to live in another world or dimension, I do not know. Perhaps there are more states of being than we are aware of or have words for beyond reincarnation and resurrection. It seems the very definition and meaning of the words reincarnation and resurrection is in question.

        Originally posted by Daheshville View Post
        Well, did he have the exact same body as Jesus, John, Peter, James etc. ?
        Who is "he"?
        Last edited by WingedPaladin; 03-30-2008, 07:38 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Daheshville View Post
          WHEREAS, when we speak of SCIENTIFIC proof, there is no shades of gray.

          Millions who attend (and enjoy) physics classes experience the same thing at the root level.
          Having majored in physics, I have come to realize there is truly no such thing as scientific "proof". There is such a thing as high scientific probability of a theory to be true based on observations and recorded data. However, change up the scientific test a little, hone in your measuring instruments, use different measuring instruments all together, change the environment of the experiment, or discover an anomaly and the scientific theory "proven" by the first experiment just might go out the window.
          • Flat Earth -> Spherical Earth -> Multidimensional Earth
          • Newton's Laws of Motion -> Einstein's Theory of Relativity


          When you start coming into sciences such as biology and archeology, then you are dealing with a mess of statistics, preconceived notions and ideas of "true" history, complications of genetics and mutations, etc. It is much easier to disprove than to prove theories in science, but then one cannot disprove something due to the lack of data - especially if that data had been collected from only a part of the whole or the probability that the observer was not using the right instrument or measurement needed to detect the data they were seeking.
          Last edited by WingedPaladin; 03-30-2008, 08:09 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by WingedPaladin View Post
            My intention is not to throw tomatoes or Noni Fruit at Daheshist beliefs or the beliefs of any other religion. My intention is to say, "Hey, all these "differing" beliefs seem to tie together after all!" I am still learning about resurrection and reincarnation, but I have no personal memory or experience to be definite on the subject. From my understanding of what I have been taught, resurrection is a permanent, eternal condition, where spirit and body are joined to never again be separated. Now whether or not the beings Joseph Smith saw all had Eternal Life and could never die again, or if they had come from a higher world where people live for thousands or millions of years then die to live in another world or dimension, I do not know. Perhaps there are more states of being than we are aware of or have words for beyond reincarnation and resurrection. It seems the very definition and meaning of the words reincarnation and resurrection is in question.



            Who is "he"?
            We might have been worried that the following statement on our part: "Any religion prior to Daheshism has to have had a limited perspective on the matter" would have sounded one-sided and judgmental... and perhaps it does at face value.

            As for the "he"... You are correct, that was a total misreading of your original text. Sorry.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Daheshville View Post
              We might have been worried that the following statement on our part: "Any religion prior to Daheshism has to have had a limited perspective on the matter" would have sounded one-sided and judgmental... and perhaps it does at face value.

              As for the "he"... You are correct, that was a total misreading of your original text. Sorry.
              No problem. I believe I have made similar mistakes here in Daheshville.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by WingedPaladin View Post
                Having majored in physics, I have come to realize there is truly no such thing as scientific "proof".
                Is this common in your field or are you in a select group of individuals who "get it?"

                See, we can't even convince some Daheshists, who swear by the scientific method, to think that way...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Daheshville View Post
                  Is this common in your field or are you in a select group of individuals who "get it?"

                  See, we can't even convince some Daheshists, who swear by the scientific method, to think that way...
                  LOL, well, I'm finding out that there are many on the internet that believe that since a group of scientists "proved" something or that since it was written in a textbook, it must be undoubtedly true. The thing is, physics textbook publishers come out with new editions, sometimes almost every year, to make corrections and to publish new findings. (Often it is a physics student or a group of physics students that might disprove a theory or problem in a textbook then write the publishers about it.)

                  I think it was a combination of studying the history and evolution of science, physics, and metaphysics, statistics, and being through so many paradigm shifts myself which helped me to realize this.

                  If one just takes science in high school then core science in college without going into that much depth, one can get caught up into the idea of, well, the science teacher told me so or it said so in the textbook, so it must be.
                  Last edited by WingedPaladin; 03-30-2008, 08:32 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by WingedPaladin View Post
                    If one just takes science in high school then core science in college without going into that much depth, one can get caught up into the idea of, well, the science teacher told me so or it said so in the textbook, so it must be.
                    The same could be said of religion. Because not everyone has or recognizes that they have metaphysical or mystical experiences, much of what religions teach has to be relied on by faith. I think this is why I have a tendency to go about and accumulate data of a religious nature (scripture, what I have personally experienced and that of what others have experienced.) Scripture can have so many interpretations to it (hence there being thousands of Christian groups, Muslim groups, etc.), it can be befuddling without being coupled with spiritual confirmation.

                    However, there are some areas that people should just not go when studying religions. Anything to do with psychics, wicca, satanism, fortune telling, ouiji boards, kundalini and spiritual awakening, new age, shamanism, etc. can be extremely dangerous. It's the devil's playground. If you play there, expect to be spiritually kidnapped and burned. There is so much counterfeit religion also where hate is preached more than love.

                    You are right to be cautious when it comes to spiritual revelation. It is so critically important to be able to discern the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits. Unclean and deceptive spirits abound in this world. I cannot say I am immune to their influence. They have taught me a lot about what is not the Spirit of the Lord.

                    Joseph Smith gave us this hint:

                    "They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the Kingdom of God."

                    The Spirit of the Lord is very edifying. When I have the Spirit of the Lord with me, I feel confident but humble, peaceful, happy, and I think clearer. Sometimes the joy I feel inside is so much, my eyes start welling up with tears. I just love everybody and want everyone to feel the same joy I do. Sometimes I would feel a sense of urgency if there is something that needs to be done urgently.

                    Spirits from below bring confusion, pride, fear, anger, hate, feelings of frustration, self-righteousness, feelings of separateness, loneliness, guilt, headaches, stupor of thought, anxiety, judgmentality of others, and just feelings of being uncomfortable inside or feeling uncomfortable in a room. These spirits have full intention to destroy us.

                    This is why God wants us to pray so much, actually always if we can train ourselves to do so - for protection and escape from beings seen and unseen who want to hurt us, for His mercy, and to raise our own vibrations so we can better hear the still small voice of the Holy Spirit and feel His loving presence.
                    Last edited by WingedPaladin; 03-30-2008, 09:13 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by WingedPaladin View Post

                      The Spirit of the Lord is very edifying. When I have the Spirit of the Lord with me, I feel confident but humble, peaceful, happy, and I think clearer. Sometimes the joy I feel inside is so much, my eyes start welling up with tears. I just love everybody and want everyone to feel the same joy I do. Sometimes I would feel a sense of urgency if there is something that needs to be done urgently.

                      Spirits from below bring confusion, pride, fear, anger, hate, feelings of frustration, self-righteousness, feelings of separateness, loneliness, guilt, headaches, stupor of thought, anxiety, judgmentality of others, and just feelings of being uncomfortable inside or feeling uncomfortable in a room. These spirits have full intention to destroy us.

                      This is why God wants us to pray so much, actually always if we can train ourselves to do so - for protection and escape from beings seen and unseen who want to hurt us, for His mercy, and to raise our own vibrations so we can better hear the still small voice of the Holy Spirit and feel His loving presence.
                      Thank you for your inspiring words WingedPaladin. You’ve been able to experience such a state of grace and you have chosen to live a life of light, love, truth...

                      When I read your words what comes to my mind is : "She has understood "everything", she does not need to "search" that much ! "You are blessed with such a sensitive soul … We feel that it must have been painful sometimes but you finally know where you are and where you want to be.

                      So with God’s help, you will be able to enjoy this peaceful path that you’ve discovered for yourself and share your happiness and your serenity with people around you ...

                      In my opinion, the world becomes a better place thanks to people like you ... So please enjoy !

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sandrine View Post
                        Thank you for your inspiring words WingedPaladin. You’ve been able to experience such a state of grace and you have chosen to live a life of light, love, truth...

                        When I read your words what comes to my mind is : "She has understood "everything", she does not need to "search" that much ! "You are blessed with such a sensitive soul … We feel that it must have been painful sometimes but you finally know where you are and where you want to be.

                        So with God’s help, you will be able to enjoy this peaceful path that you’ve discovered for yourself and share your happiness and your serenity with people around you ...

                        In my opinion, the world becomes a better place thanks to people like you ... So please enjoy !
                        Thank you for your kind words Sandrine. Having the Spirit of the Lord with me is something I wish I could have all the time. But yet I struggle with human nature, fears, self-doubt... I know I have many things to personally overcome. I have learned so much here from Dr. Dahesh, from Mario, from you, and from others here. I have learned more about God, our relationship to Him, and the journey and development of the soul. It does give me much hope. In many ways it has strengthened my faith, my dedication to God and to Jesus, and my understanding of the words of the prophets. Perhaps I have understood more than the average bear, perhaps not. I still feel I have only scratched the surface of the surface of all there is to know in the universe.

                        Perhaps I am more open than most on the topic of reincarnation due to encounters I have had with those who believe in it, those who have done studies with regression, those who had near-death experiences and said that it is true, those who have told me of my past lives, and so I figure either it is an elaborate lie of the adversary, or it is simply a fact of life. I have no conscious memory of past lives, so it is not something I can verify to be absolutely true.

                        I believe in the possibility that Joseph Smith and other prophets and apostles knew about reincarnation, but would not talk about it simply because the people were not ready to hear it and would reject it and call them false prophets and/or would be more interested in finding out about their past lives than focusing on making the best of their present one. I think I have posted somewhere else in these forums the frustration Joseph Smith felt in not being able to tell the saints everything he knew from the Lord because of their unwillingness to receive.

                        Concerning the Lord's commandment "Be ye therefore perfect" (Matthew 5:48), the late Apostle James E. Faust stated, "Perfection is an eternal goal. While we cannot be perfect in mortality, striving for it is a commandment, which ultimately, through the Atonement, we can keep."

                        Is this a hint to reincarnation or is it more attuned to the idea that we continue to progress in spirit, if we so choose, after death until perfection is attained? I do not know, and President Faust, who said this, is no longer with us. There are websites dedicated to evidences of reincarnation in Mormonism and in the Bible, so I don't feel the need to belabor it here.

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